Curse

Digitalblast · Jul 14, 2005, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Lets switch it up a bit. Dont make it such a big penalty.
-25 for major, -40 for superior.

nuff said.

Indigo · Jul 14, 2005, 03:51 PM // 15:51

I disagree... because then you could have people having 2 to 3 superior runes for very little health penalty... Less than half of 2 superiors now, actually. So, I'll say let's leave it the way it is.

Talesin Darkbriar · Jul 14, 2005, 03:54 PM // 15:54

-"Lets switch it up a bit. Dont make it such a big penalty.
-25 for major, -40 for superior."
Once you start tweaking with this, the hue and cry will be "- 40 is too much of a penalty, make it - 10!

Best to let that sleeping dog lie.
You want the bonus? You take the hit.

Digitalblast · Jul 14, 2005, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indigo

I disagree... because then you could have people having 2 to 3 superior runes for very little health penalty... Less than half of 2 superiors now, actually. So, I'll say let's leave it the way it is.

But everyone will be able to and thus balancing itself out in the end.

IndyCC · Jul 14, 2005, 03:59 PM // 15:59

I will never understand why everyone wants to make this game even easier. Do people nowadays not enjoy the thrill of *gasp* a challenge.

Ensign · Jul 14, 2005, 06:34 PM // 18:34

What would this add to gameplay? Making using Superior runes even more brainless?

The -75 health on Superior runes is fine, they're used extensively even with that hit. Now Majors, they should have their health hit lowered. It's completely out of proportion, if you'd want to use a major (an additional +1 for -50 health), grabbing another +1 for only 25 health is brainless. Hence, all major runes are trash. Drop them down to, say, -25 health and you might actually see one used on occasion.

Peace,
-CxE

Ashika · Jul 14, 2005, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Now Majors, they should have their health hit lowered. It's completely out of proportion, if you'd want to use a major (an additional +1 for -50 health), grabbing another +1 for only 25 health is brainless. Hence, all major runes are trash. Drop them down to, say, -25 health and you might actually see one used on occasion.

The -50 health has always boggled my mind. With such a large penalty for +1, it's no wonder only the foolish use these. Dropping the hit to -25 for major would likely be the simplest change that yields the greatest benefits. It would add several elements to the game (major vs sup rune strategy, major rune trading for example).

There are many things in GW that makes me wonder what was going on when it was designed (alcohol/drug binge? Leaving the 8 y/o autistic nephew in charge?) and this fits right in there. [Note: I say this because GW simultaneously displays brilliance and utter stupidity within. It's a wonderful love/hate relationship I've got going.]

Algren Cole · Jul 14, 2005, 06:50 PM // 18:50

I think runes should give you +HP and vigors should give you ++HP(exponential. i.e. turns your 210 HP into 420 hp)...this way any brainless twack of a monkey could complete this game with their eyes closed.

Creamy Jade · Jul 14, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The -75 health on Superior runes is fine, they're used extensively even with that hit. Now Majors, they should have their health hit lowered. It's completely out of proportion, if you'd want to use a major (an additional +1 for -50 health), grabbing another +1 for only 25 health is brainless. Hence, all major runes are trash. Drop them down to, say, -25 health and you might actually see one used on occasion.

Peace,
-CxE

I disagree with that major runes are trash, it just (as everything else) depends on your build. Now I have not gotten that far yet, as I only have a few minor runes sofar, but I assume they work with the same principle as minor runes.

With that said, with major runes you can have two attributes at +2 instead of one attribute at +3 by using a single superior rune for only loosing 25 health more. So that is theoretically two attribute at 14, instead of 1 at 15 and 1 at 12. (I am ignoring all non-rune ways to increase attribute past 12.)

Which is better? Well that really depends on your build, some rely on getting a single skill as high as possible while others benefit on a more even spread.

The break even point, is exactly at a loss of 150 HP. I do not know if that loss of 150 HP is desirable, but that is not my point. It leads to being able to have 2 attributes at +3, or 3 skills at +2. Both ways increase attributes with 6 points in total.

Edit: Tried to edit 'skills' into 'attributes' as they should have been. Silly me

IxChel · Jul 14, 2005, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Now Majors, they should have their health hit lowered. It's completely out of proportion, if you'd want to use a major (an additional +1 for -50 health), grabbing another +1 for only 25 health is brainless. Hence, all major runes are trash. Drop them down to, say, -25 health and you might actually see one used on occasion.

Majors are useless. A superior is -75 for 2 points, or -37 for each point. Therefore, the Major should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 35-40, in my humble opinion; -25 is too low (unless superiors were -50).

Ultimate_Gaara · Jul 14, 2005, 07:00 PM // 19:00

i would never use anything other than i minor due to the -HP, but i like it because you have to sacrifce a little for extra power which makes some people think twice

Orochim4ru · Jul 14, 2005, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Math time: if minors are free, and Sup runes are -75, then getting +2 +2 for a total of 4 points costs 100hp, vs a -75, -0 for a 3/1 with sup and minor.

The only use for majors is hp tweaking with prot spirit or bond.

Xonic · Jul 14, 2005, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digitalblast

But everyone will be able to and thus balancing itself out in the end.

then maybe we should have +HP from runes instead

MuKen · Jul 14, 2005, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creamy Jade

I disagree with that major runes are trash, it just (as everything else) depends on your build. Now I have not gotten that far yet, as I only have a few minor runes sofar, but I assume they work with the same principle as minor runes.

With that said, with major runes you can have two attributes at +2 instead of one attribute at +3 by using a single superior rune for only loosing 25 health more. So that is theoretically two attribute at 14, instead of 1 at 15 and 1 at 12. (I am ignoring all non-rune ways to increase attribute past 12.)

Which is better? Well that really depends on your build, some rely on getting a single skill as high as possible while others benefit on a more even spread.

The break even point, is exactly at a loss of 150 HP. I do not know if that loss of 150 HP is desirable, but that is not my point. It leads to being able to have 2 attributes at +3, or 3 skills at +2. Both ways increase attributes with 6 points in total.

Edit: Tried to edit 'skills' into 'attributes' as they should have been. Silly me

That math doesn't work out because you're ignoring the free minor rune you get with using a superior rune for one stat and no health loser for the other stat. It's not +3 for 75 or +2/+2 for 100, it's actually +3/+1 for 75 or +2/+2 for 100.

If you were willing to spend the 100 for +2/+2, you can get 25 more health by using the +3/+1 instead and swapping your natural point allocations. Furthermore, if the two stats you are bumping are to different totals, then you lose no attribute points, or might even gain attribute points for doing this. For example, instead of having 11+2/10+2, using 10+3/11+1 results in the same stats for the same cost but more hp. Or instead of having 12+2/10+2 using 11+3/11+1 results in having the same stats for less cost and more hp.

Even if you were going for 12+2+1(headgear)/12+2, which is probably what you are thinking of with major runes you can do the same thing by using 12+1+1 and 12+3 with superior and minor and get the same stats with more hp.

If we are going to talk about three stats like in your 150hp example, the computations pretty much always go in favor of sup runes. Take the standard 11/10/10. If you go 11+2/10+2/10+2, you can get the same effect by instead going 10+3/9+3/11+1, and have the same hp and stats, but with a whole bunch more attribute points to spend there or elsewhere. Using less even starting stats will only favor superior runes more, like in my example above.

So, in conclusion, major runes suck. I'm having a great deal of difficulty thinking of a single point distribution using major runes that can't be done better by superior runes (unless you're hp tweaking like the guy above me said).

EDIT: Actually, I'm fairly sure there are no point distributions achievable with major runes that can't be done cheaper without them. So yeah, they literally have no use unless you actually want your hp lower (for various reasons).

Ensign · Jul 14, 2005, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ashika

There are many things in GW that makes me wonder what was going on when it was designed (alcohol/drug binge? Leaving the 8 y/o autistic nephew in charge?) and this fits right in there.

When this was first designed, majors came with a -50 HP hit and superiors with a -100 HP hit. It was later decided that a -100 HP hit was too extreme for an item that was supposed to be both rare and valuable, and the hit was dropped to -75 HP. Major runes were not similarly adjusted and the results are what we see now - a completely useless class of runes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Creamy Jade

I disagree with that major runes are trash, it just (as everything else) depends on your build.

I'm getting tired of the vague 'it depends on your build' non-argument. There are solid mathematical and strategic reasons why major runes are utter trash, and that there might be some one in a million build out there (that no one can even name) that might want to use a major does not change that. In every known situation, some combination of minor and superior runes will outperform a build using majors. Period.

Minor runes exist. +1 attribute helms exist. Those must be taken into account when discussing majors and superiors. Even if you want an even spread of high-level attributes, you're better off using some combination of superiors, minors, and base attribute tweaking. *THIS IS THE FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM WITH MAJOR RUNES*

Quote:

Originally Posted by IxChel

A superior is -75 for 2 points, or -37 for each point. Therefore, the Major should be somewhere in the neighborhood of 35-40, in my humble opinion; -25 is too low (unless superiors were -50).

Major runes need to outperform superior runes in situations where you want multiple high level attributes, not just a single one - they simply will not do that if the cost per point is the same. Just look at the 15/14 or 14/14 situations, where even at the same health costs superiors and majors would both suffice. Those are attribute setups that should scream for majors and simply don't.

A superior rune should represent an even greater commitment to a single attribute line than a major, at a greater cost, when it simply does not. The cost, per point, of using a superior rune should thus be higher than using a major. This would drive people to use superior runes only when they really wanted to max out a single attribute - otherwise they would use majors to spread their points around and save on health. More importantly, even for a single-attribute user, a -0/-25/-75 configuration allows arguments to be made for every level, while even a -0/-35/-75 would drive people to the extremes.

I'd wager that even at a -25 health hit on majors, superior runes used in competitive PvP would still outnumber majors. There are simply too many builds that want to max out particular attribute lines, and the health hit just isn't going to be the breaking point. You would, however, see majors becoming popular with Monks (who are lothe to sacrifice their defense with all the fire they take) and Rangers (who need to spread attributes around to maintain effectiveness).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orochim4ru

The only use for majors is hp tweaking with prot spirit or bond.

Superiors are better for that as well. Though I guess there's a use for majors when you're doing crazy rune stacking at low levels, letting you fine tune your HP a bit better - at level 20 you just want to take the 5 supers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuKen

EDIT: Actually, I'm fairly sure there are no point distributions achievable with major runes that can't be done cheaper without them. So yeah, they literally have no use unless you actually want your hp lower (for various reasons).

Well, there are theoretical points where majors might be better. You might not want more than one additional attribute level above minors to hit all of your break points, or you might want exactly 3 additional attribute levels. Odd configurations have worse hit point per level tradeoffs, but they're still better if the extra level doesn't accomplish anything. Oh, and you cannot want even a single point in secondary or dump attributes, because otherwise use of a superior is going to give you several extra levels in those attributes which is well worth those -25 HP.

Now what build would want that? I don't know. I've never made one. Never seen one either. -25 HP for an attribute level is just a trivial tradeoff on any attribute that's worth a major - even if you just pull the 16-20 attribute points off of the base and redistribute them elsewhere from it.

Peace,
-CxE

MuKen · Jul 14, 2005, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Well, there are theoretical points where majors might be better. You might not want more than one additional attribute level above minors to hit all of your break points, or you might want exactly 3 additional attribute levels. Odd configurations have worse hit point per level tradeoffs, but they're still better if the extra level doesn't accomplish anything. Oh, and you cannot want even a single point in secondary or dump attributes, because otherwise use of a superior is going to give you several extra levels in those attributes which is well worth those -25 HP.

Now what build would want that? I don't know. I've never made one. Never seen one either. -25 HP for an attribute level is just a trivial tradeoff on any attribute that's worth a major - even if you just pull the 16-20 attribute points off of the base and redistribute them elsewhere from it.

Peace,
-CxE

I'm having a little trouble wrapping my brain around what you're saying here, can you make an example of such a situation?

hydrak · Jul 14, 2005, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Superior is just fine with -75 life. Any less would encourage the use of 2 or more superiors, and that would complicate the game's balance.

Orochim4ru · Jul 14, 2005, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Superiors are better for that as well. Though I guess there's a use for majors when you're doing crazy rune stacking at low levels, letting you fine tune your HP a bit better - at level 20 you just want to take the 5 supers.

Not exactly. If you mess up and get dp, switching from a sup runed armor to a maj runed armor can keep you at your optimum hp. Also important is that its possible to drop yourself to 0/0 hp if you aren't careful, and thus on the dp shot beforehand you have to switch an armor piece to give yourself an extra bit of hp to survive if you die.

Mostly this is for farming areas that take a while to get to, or for long PvE sessions.

But yeah, until you practice a lot with protbond/spirit invincibility builds you'll never have a use for majors... cept the price reduction.

Aniewiel · Jul 14, 2005, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Talesin Darkbriar

-"Lets switch it up a bit. Dont make it such a big penalty.
-25 for major, -40 for superior."
Once you start tweaking with this, the hue and cry will be "- 40 is too much of a penalty, make it - 10!

Best to let that sleeping dog lie.
You want the bonus? You take the hit.

Agreed.

If you can live with a smaller bonus, use a minor.

Kashrlyyk · Jul 14, 2005, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by IndyCC

I will never understand why everyone wants to make this game even easier. Do people nowadays not enjoy the thrill of *gasp* a challenge.

If I want a challenge, I take part in a competition or a tournament! But in a game I only seek fun!